PETER ALEXANDER:
This Sunday: conviction campaign. Former President Trump returns to Capitol Hill for the first time since the January 6th attack.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We agree, just about, on everything. And if there isn't, we work it out.
REP. JAMIE RASKIN:
He returned to the scene of the crime, like a lot of convicted felons do.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Mr. Trump pushing to unite Republicans and urging them to overturn his Manhattan conviction.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I'm the only one in history who got indicted and my numbers went up.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Plus: setting the stage. With the first general election debate less than two weeks away, President Biden holds a star-studded fundraiser in Los Angeles with former President Obama.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The Supreme Court has never been out of kilter as it is today.
PETER ALEXANDER:
After his son Hunter Biden is convicted on gun charges.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I said I abide by the jury decision. I will do that, and I will not pardon him.
PETER ALEXANDER:
My guests this morning: Republican Congressman Byron Donalds, a potential Trump running mate and Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna, a top Biden surrogate. And: peace at any price? Russian President Vladimir Putin responds to the new U.S.-Ukraine security agreement with a ceasefire offer that includes sweeping demands for Ukrainian territory.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
You cannot wait us out. You cannot divide us, and we'll be with Ukraine until they prevail in this war.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Is the cost too high? Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Washington Correspondent Yamiche Alcindor, Jonathan Martin of Politico, former Democratic Congresswoman Stephanie Murphy and Marc Short, former chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Good morning and Happy Father's Day. I’m Peter Alexander, in for Kristen Welker. With the presidential debate just 11 days away, the two men who will face off on stage are aggressively gearing up for the general election. Former President Trump, on Capitol Hill for the first time since the Capitol attack, used part of his day in Washington for informal debate prep with Senator Marco Rubio, among others. President Biden, who returns to Washington late tonight will begin extensive debate prep this week as well, overseen by his first White House chief of staff Ron Klain. Last night the president held a star-studded fundraiser in Los Angeles with President Obama, George Clooney, and Julia Roberts, among others.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. BARACK OBAMA:
We had the spectacle of the nominee of one of the two major parties sitting in court and being convicted by a jury of his peers on 34 counts. What I would say and what I do say to a bunch of good people out there who are conservatively predisposed who may not agree with everything that Joe, or I, or other Democrats stand for, is that there was a time when we had certain core values that we agreed with.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
President Biden delivered some of his toughest criticism yet of the Supreme Court, warning that the next president could nominate two Supreme Court justices.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The Supreme Court has never been out of kilter as it is today. I mean never. The fact of the matter is this has never been a court that has been this far out of step.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
And just days after his son Hunter's conviction on felony gun charges, President Biden flew to Italy for the G7 meeting of American allies, reinforcing the U.S. commitment to Ukraine. And, new this morning, multiple sources familiar with the White House's plans tell NBC News that President Biden is set to take executive action as early as Tuesday to protect hundreds of thousands of undocumented spouses of U.S. citizens from deportation. For his part, Mr. Trump is trying to present a united front, and that means burying a lot of baggage with some leading Republicans. The former president, you'll remember, repeatedly attacked Senator Mitch McConnell as a "lousy leader" and worse, and even insulted his wife, the former Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao, using racial slurs. And in the days after the January 6th riot, McConnell blamed Mr. Trump, saying that he was “practically and morally responsible,” calling the attack “disgraceful.” They had not spoken in four years, but now, at least to them, it all appears to be water under the bridge.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
This is an outstanding group of people. I'm with them a thousand percent, they're with me a thousand percent. We agree, just about, on everything. And if there isn't, we work it out.
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
We shook hands a few times. And he, uh, took questions from the audience. And it was an entirely positive session.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
But the message discipline may be short-lived. In a closed door session, Mr. Trump reportedly called Milwaukee, where Republicans are holding their convention next month, a, quote, "horrible city." The former president has also been preoccupied with using Congress to defund the Justice Department, and after a Manhattan jury found him guilty on 34 felony counts, Mr. Trump asked House Speaker Mike Johnson to find a way to, quote, "overturn" his conviction.
[START TAPE]
SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON:
I do believe the Supreme Court should step in. Obviously, this is totally unprecedented. This will be overturned, guys, there’s no question about it. It’s just going to take some time to do it.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
In Michigan on Saturday, where he campaigned in an effort to court Black voters, Mr. Trump slammed his conviction.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I got indicted more than the legendary Alphonse Capone. Has anyone ever heard of Alphonse
Capone? Scarface. I got indicted more than he did, and I didn't do anything wrong.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
And the former president seemed to enjoy the speculation about who he’ll pick as a running mate, mentioning Republican Congressman Byron Donalds.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
He is on the list, by the way and I don't know if he's gonna make it, but he's – he's on a list of a few people, right? Not too many people. Would you like to be VP? I think he would.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
And joining me now on behalf of the Trump campaign is Republican Congressman Byron Donalds of Florida. Congressman Donalds, welcome back to Meet the Press. Happy Father's Day.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Oh, thank you so much. Happy Father's Day to everybody out there.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Thanks, Congressman. This weekend Donald Trump again railed, as you saw, against his guilty verdict handed down by that Manhattan jury last month. He has said he's going to appeal the verdict. He has also asked House Speaker Mike Johnson to overturn his conviction. Why should Congress intervene on Donald Trump's behalf rather than letting the judicial process play out?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, look, first of all, it's good to be with you. One very important thing: It's not about Speaker Johnson. He doesn't have that power to – that power to overturn anything. But what it's about is that Congress does fund a lot of jurisdictions around the country, and if there is a jurisdiction that takes federal money and it does not also protect the constitutional rights of all Americans, whether that's President Trump or any other American, they shouldn't receive federal funds. I think that's something that every American would agree with, and you do have to understand President Trump's frustration. What happened in lower Manhattan was a violation of his constitutional rights. They didn't even identify the "crime," quote, unquote, until the very end of the process, which is a violation of constitutional norms. Judge Merchan did not do that. And so yes, he's frustrated. Any American would be frustrated.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And Congressman, to be clear, this was obviously a state case. He was indicted by a grand jury of New Yorkers. It was a jury of his peers in New York that found him guilty. The president, former president, has called himself a political prisoner, but of course he had legal representation. He has the right to appeal. He's neither been detained nor imprisoned, so why not just let the judicial process play out?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, let's – let’s go back before you go down that line. In the original indictment, they never identified an underlying crime. Under our – under our Bill of Rights, under our rule of law, a defendant is entitled to know what he's being charged with. Donald Trump was never afforded that ability, so how can his legal team prepare a defense if you don't even know what the actual crime is? That is why what happened in lower Manhattan was so terrible. And the only time the prosecution could even assert a crime was at the end of the trace – of the case in closing arguments. You're not allowed to do that.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And sir, to be –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Every judge knows this. This is why everybody believes this is going to be overturned on appeal –
PETER ALEXANDER:
So let me ask you about that. So let me ask you about that specifically.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
– but it is meant to interfere with the presidential election. That is a problem.
PETER ALEXANDER:
If it – if it is overturned – I apologize for the satellite delay – if it is overturned on appeal, will you accept that verdict?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, understand what I'm trying to explain to you. This is being done for political purposes.
PETER ALEXANDER:
But –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Everybody knows how the court system works in New York.
PETER ALEXANDER:
But will you accept the verdict if it’s appealed, sir? If it's overturned on appeal?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
In New York, the only ability for this to be overturned is going to have – is going to be happening two or three years from now. We all know this. That's why what happened in lower Manhattan was to interfere with an election, which is why Speaker Johnson, myself included, and many Americans believe the Supreme Court should step in to this matter.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And to be clear, Joe Biden, there is no evidence that he had anything to do with this case. The Manhattan DA, as you know, began this investigation in 2018, before Joe Biden was even his party's nominee. I want to ask you about specifically what we've been hearing from Republicans and from Donald Trump claiming the Democrats are illegally weaponizing the Justice Department against Mr. Trump. Why is it appropriate for Donald Trump, then, to call for prosecuting his political opponents, including President Biden?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, let me also explain this one. Now, what he did say was, is that we have always had this kind of gentleman's agreement that you do not go after the political leaders of the – of the oppositional party. When Donald Trump was president, he didn't – he didn’t have his attorney generals go after Hillary Clinton when she did violate the Espionage Act. He did not give that order. They did not go and prosecute Hillary Clinton. But now you have a situation where main justice has weaponized the Justice Department to go after Donald Trump. You have Jack Smith, who's chasing down Donald Trump on – on violating the Espionage Act, but at the same time, Robert Hur knows that President Biden has violated the Espionage Act. Robert Hur is not prosecuting Joe Biden.
PETER ALEXANDER:
So let me –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Jack Smith is trying to prosecute Donald Trump. That is –
PETER ALEXANDER:
Let me interrupt briefly though. The Justice –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
– a two-tiered justice. It's very plain to see.
PETER ALEXANDER:
The Biden Justice Department obviously is also prosecuting Democrats. Robert Menendez of New Jersey, Henry Cuellar of Texas right now. They just prosecuted Hunter Biden as well. So is it only weaponization when it is Republicans that are being prosecuted?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
That's not true, and that's not even the same thing we're talking about here. What you've got to understand is –
PETER ALEXANDER:
But they've prosecuted both Democrats and Republicans, so I think Americans would say is that equal justice?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
– Bob Menendez. First of all, Bob Menendez has gold bars with his name engraved on them from a foreign country. So that's what Bob Menendez's situation is. Henry Cuellar's situation just got into investigation. But it is without a doubt that these legal cases were all brought in the middle of a presidential election for one purpose, and that is to criminalize Donald Trump. That is to polarize Donald Trump. That is to persecute Donald Trump. That's the only reason why you even bring these cases in the timeframe that they're being brought.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And again, there's been a series of cases against Democrats as well. Let me ask you about another headline we've been watching. A Trump supporter in Texas just this week, Congressman, was arrested for making threats against an FBI agent who was involved in the Hunter Biden investigation. Authorities say the agent received text messages and an explicit voicemail that said in part, "You can ride but you can't hide” and “we'll hunt you down and slaughter you like the traitorous dogs you are." Will you condemn those kinds of threats?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, I don’t – first of all, I don't think that is appropriate for any citizen to say. I just want to make sure I heard you clearly. Were you talking about a citizen? What – what – who were you actually talking about? I want to hear clearly before I fully answer.
PETER ALEXANDER:
I have the criminal complaint here. I can get into more detail. Suffice to say this is an individual in Texas who was saying these things allegedly in the form of text messages and voicemails to an FBI agent, a supporter of Donald Trump who is making these – who is saying these things.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, listen, I don't support those comments. I think those comments are out of bounds. I don't think we should be doing that in our country. We have to make sure that we respect every – everybody in our country. You have to be tolerant of all people even when you disagree. Now I will say that there is also a frustration amongst the American people. It does not justify those comments. I want to be clear on this. But there is a frustration of the American people when it looks like the institutions and the pillars of our country are being eroded simply for political purposes. And it is without question that that is coming from the Biden administration. They have spied on the American people. They have weaponized the Department of Justice against conservatives and now, of course, against President Trump, and people are getting very frustrated with that.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And as we've said, they're also prosecuting Democrats. Let me ask you about some policy issues as they relate to Mr. Trump. This week Mr. Trump floated the idea of getting rid of the federal income tax and replacing it with an “all-tariff policy.” Many economists say that that would help the rich and that it would hurt middle- and lower-income Americans. In 2021, Congressman, you praised America as a “beacon for free and fair trade throughout the entire world.” So wouldn't the president's idea hurt tens of millions of Americans?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, let me be direct about trade policy. For a lot of our country's history, trade policy has not been written to the best interests of the American people. A lot of these trade policies have favored foreign countries. I definitely – I believe in free trade, but it has to be fair trade. The deals have to be equitable. The deals that were written in the past, previous administrations, were not equitable to the American people, to the American companies. So that's the type of thing that has to be shifted.
PETER ALEXANDER:
So Donald Trump's proposing an all-tariff policy –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Now, hold on a second. Let me finish. I'm going to come to the policy. Now, what I will say is that President Trump is thinking through all types of various policies to jumpstart our economy, to make sure that we have a flourishing and thriving America. It's an idea. It's not concrete yet. A lot of things have to be fleshed out. I was in the room when this was brought up. I talked with several of my colleagues who understand tariff policy, trade policy and tax policy in a lot more detail than I do. They said there's some merit to it, but there's some other things that have to be worked out. You also have to figure out how to deal with the taxation piece for people on the low end of the socioeconomic spectrum, something I know that President Trump would definitely look into to protect all Americans.
PETER ALEXANDER:
So to be clear, these are just ideas you're suggesting. This isn't a real proposal that he's looking to implement right now. We should note that under Donald Trump in his four years in office –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
There are many ideas – there are many ideas that the president is thinking through, all designed to make sure that America thrives and that the American people thrive.
PETER ALEXANDER:
The debt rose by $8.4 trillion when Donald Trump was in office, and also the Fed chair, who Donald Trump himself selected, has said this week that the economy is “growing at a solid pace” and we have a “strong labor market.” I want to ask you, if I can, about that a little bit. Wouldn't this policy, though, hurt the very Americans, Black Americans, that you were speaking to last night?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Actually, no, I disagree with you because again, when you begin to go through public policy you think about it from a 50,000-foot level. Then you start to distill yourself down into the idea. You figure out all the details. Let me tell you what is hurting Black Americans: the fact that under Joe Biden's economy, their purchasing power is being destroyed by Joe Biden's radical inflation. Prices are up 20% across the board. So while unemployment might be low, wages adjusted for inflation are significantly down. How can a Black person get ahead when you have less disposable income today than you had in 2017, in 2018, in 2019? This is what a lot of the Black business owners that we talked to yesterday in Detroit were explaining to the president.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Let me try to – Let me try to get to a couple other topics. The lowest unemployment rate for Black Americans under Donald Trump was 5.3%, the lowest under Joe Biden was 4.7%. Republicans are set to formally nominate Donald Trump at the party's convention in Milwaukee next month. Donald Trump, during his meeting with Republicans this week, called Milwaukee a “horrible” city. The campaign later clarified, said he was talking about alleged voter fraud and the crime rate there. So let me take those one at a time. Murders in Milwaukee are down 39% since last year, and the Trump campaign's own election investigator in 2020 said that Wisconsin's results were legit. So if Mr. Trump feels so strongly that Milwaukee is a horrible city, why is he having his convention there?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, two things. First of all, when you bring these comments up please bring them in context. I'm glad that you mentioned what the campaign said afterwards. But I notice that your network and a lot of the press are not doing that. With respect to Milwaukee, he was talking about allegations of voter fraud and also the crime rate. And I think it's important for people to understand your murder rate may be down, but that doesn't mean that violent crime, et cetera, are also lower. Those are two different pieces of crime. Obviously, murder is the most heinous of them all.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Fine, but –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Now, when it comes to the City of Milwaukee — let me finish now — they're not only talking about Milwaukee. The reason why the RNC and President Trump want to go to Milwaukee is because we know there are voters in the state of Wisconsin, like voters all across America, who are frustrated with what has happened to our country under Joe Biden. Immigration massively up and out of control. The labor markets are okay, not great. Wages are down when you adjust them for inflation. People are struggling to make ends meet in Joe Biden's America. So the president's taking his message everywhere, including the City of Milwaukee.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Again I – I apologize for the interruption. A lot to get to. We should note it's not just the murder rate. The overall violent crime has fallen during Biden's presidency. It is now at a near 50-year low. Finally, some news about your future. Mr. Trump said yesterday that your name is very high on his list of people he's considering as a running mate. Would you be ready on day one to serve as commander-in-chief if necessary?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, I think if you're going to step into that job, it's obviously the toughest job, the biggest job not just in our politics but really, frankly, in the world. Look, I think that I would have an ability to step in. I'm actually pretty intelligent. I can sift through issues really, really well. It's about judgment. It's about logic streams. It's about how you make decisions, at the end of the day. And then you cannot discount the fact that you would have a lot of people who are very qualified to be around to help you do that job and do what's in the best interest of the American people. Do I believe in myself? One hundred percent, I do. And so, you know, we'll see what President Trump decides. I'm going to support whatever he does.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Congressman Byron Donalds, we appreciate you making time to speak to us today. Thank you very much. When we come back, more than eight months after the Israel-Hamas war began, President Biden has yet to secure a ceasefire and he says he's not confident of a deal happening soon. Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna, a surrogate for the Biden campaign, joins me next.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Welcome back. During the G7 Summit with world leaders President Biden addressed the ongoing battle between Israeli and Hamas that has enflamed divisions among many Americans.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I've laid down an approach that has been endorsed by the U.N. Security Council, by the G7, by the Israelis, and the biggest hangup so far is Hamas refusing to sign on, even though they have submitted something similar.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California, a top surrogate for the Biden campaign, who has been critical of the president's approach to the war, joins me now. Congressman Khanna, welcome back to Meet The Press and happy Father's Day to you as well.
REP. RO KHANNA:
Peter, happy Father's Day to you and to the viewers.
PETER ALEXANDER:
I appreciate it. Thank you. Hamas has balked at every ceasefire proposal, as you have witnessed. They are holding out for a complete withdrawal of Israeli troops and a permanent ceasefire. According to The Wall Street Journal, the leader of Hamas called civilian losses in Gaza “necessary sacrifices.”. What more do you propose President Biden should be doing if Hamas will not agree?
REP. RO KHANNA:
Well, the president has set forth a clear vision, and I support the ceasefire proposal and release of hostages that he set out. The U.N. has endorsed it. The Arab League has endorsed it. We need Egypt and Qatar to put more pressure on Hamas. Hamas is saying, "Well, you can't have phases. You need everything done on phase one." That's unrealistic. There needs to be more pressure. But there also needs to be more pressure on Netanyahu. Benny Gantz has been all over Israeli TV saying that Netanyahu has been undermining a hostage deal, and it's a philosophical difference, Peter. Benny Gantz is saying, "Prioritize the hostage deal and the peace." Netanyahu's saying, "They want to destroy military all of Hamas. And I don't think that's achievable.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Let me ask you specifically about Benjamin Netanyahu. By invitation of Congress Netanyahu is going to be speaking before a joint session of Congress to take place next month in July. Some Democrats are suggesting forms of protest. What do you think that should look like, and will you attend his address?
REP. RO KHANNA:
I will not attend. I said that if he wants to come to speak to members of Congress about how to end the war and release hostages, I would be fine doing that. But I'm not going to sit in a one-way lecture. And I agree with Representative Clyburn. I mean, how he treated President Obama, he should not expect reciprocity. That said, I think it should be polite. We're not going to make a big deal about it. He's obviously addressing the Congress, and there has to be decorum.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Let me ask you about the big picture, as it relates to foreign policy right now. Former president Trump and his allies have made the argument that October 7th, the attack on Israeli and Russia's invasion of Ukraine both happened not when Donald Trump was in office but when Joe Biden was in office. Why shouldn't Americans consider that argument when they're deciding how to vote this fall?
REP. RO KHANNA:
Peter, it used to be that we were bipartisan on foreign policy. And you can't blame President Biden or Trump for Putin's evil. I mean, Putin invaded a sovereign country, on Ukraine. And now the question is, philosophically, are we going to stand up for Ukraine's integrity? I mean, Putin's peace deal on the table, he wants one fifth of all of Ukraine. He wants more territory of Ukraine than he's currently occupied. And so the question for both of the candidates should be, "Are you going to agree to Putin's term?" Biden hasn't. We've supported Ukraine's aid. Would Trump agree to Putin's terms?
PETER ALEXANDER:
Let me ask you, if I can, about this broadly. The president has seen a big erosion as it relates to young voters that you've been speaking to a lot in your campaigning, here specifically, as it relates to the war in Gaza, you said back in February that, "Even if President Biden were to bring about a ceasefire in Gaza, there would still need to be a healing period before Democrats," these young voters, "may be able to come back and be comfortable with his leadership again." That was four months ago. Is the president running out of time to win back some of these young voters?
REP. RO KHANNA:
Well, the biggest thing we're running out of time is more people dying. And we have to remember the humanitarian stakes. But, yes, it's a challenge for our party. Young people want the war to end. But what young people want is a vision, and the president started that with the ceasefire. I hope he can go further. And he should call for two states. He should say in his second term he's going to convene a peace conference in the Middle East, recognize a Palestinian state without Hamas, work with Egypt, Saudi Arabia on it.
PETER ALEXANDER:
I didn't mean to interrupt you. I want to ask you about a couple other topics quickly on policy. On immigration. Republicans tanked a bipartisan border security bill, as you know, so the president recently took executive action to restrict the number of migrants who can seek asylum, who are entering the United States. You're among many Democrats who've been critical of this policy. An ACLU lawsuit says the president's plan is, quote, "Legally indistinguishable from the Trump ban." Do you agree?
REP. RO KHANNA:
I don't think it's the right policy. I understand the president's frustration. He has tried for three years, not six months, three years to get Congress to fund immigration judges, border patrol. We haven't done it. But this is not going to solve the issue, because you have an artificial cap and people are basically going to go to gangs and come through non-port of entries. And we don't want to have that situation on the border.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Let me ask you about Hunter Biden. He was convicted on gun charges this week. He'll be back in the court on tax charges in California, as you know, later this year. Even though Hunter Biden is not on the ballot, the case this fall could raise some potentially damaging details about Hunter Biden's business dealings. How concerned should Democrats be about another high-profile trial in the waning weeks of this campaign season?
REP. RO KHANNA:
It won't be an issue, because Democrats actually believe in the rule of law. You asked Representative Donalds, "Would you accept the Trump case, even if it went to an appeal," he didn't say yes. I would accept it if it was overturned, and I accept whatever the judicial process is with Hunter Biden. This is really about a father's love for his son, of someone who has had addiction, and he understands that the legal – he will have legal consequences. The president is prepared to deal with that with the love of a father. On Father's Day, I think that's what's going to come out, the president's love and concern for someone who's had a difficult time.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Just a few weeks from now – not even a few weeks from now – 11 days from now, we're going to see Donald Trump and Joe Biden together on stage at the debate. Mr. Trump just turned 78 this past week. Joe Biden, as you know, is 81 years old. But according to our polling, Americans are much more concerned about President Biden's mental and physical fitness than they are about Donald Trump's? Why is that?
REP. RO KHANNA:
Some of it is aesthetic. I mean, Donald Trump has been blessed with good genes or whatever he does. But I think that the real issue, the president always delivers in big moments. He did in the State of the Union. And people are going to see the difference. Does Donald Trump want to give up part of Ukraine? Does he want to have tariffs that are going to increase prices for folks. President Biden has brought back manufacturing and factories. How many factories did Donald Trump bring back? Let's have a debate about the different visions of America.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Let me ask you finally about your future. When you were recently in New Hampshire, a local Democrat there introduced you, sir, as the fifth member of their delegation because you have been there so often. Is a presidential bid something that you would consider in the future?
REP. RO KHANNA:
I am so focused, as is everyone, in trying to get President Biden elected. But I will say this: This country is hungry, after that, for a new generation. And we've got tremendous talent in our party, and there are young people on the other side as well. And I'm looking forward, after President Biden is reelected, to a new generation leading this country.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Congressman Ro Khanna, we appreciate your time. Happy Father's--
REP. RO KHANNA:
Thank you.
PETER ALEXANDER:
– Day again to you. And when we come back, neither Donald Trump nor Joe Biden has debated in more than 1,300 days. Their last debate performance against one another nearly four years ago. Both men facing unique challenges as they prepare for their first 2024 showdown. The panel is next.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: NBC News Washington correspondent Yamiche Alcindor, Jonathan Martin, politics bureau chief and senior political columnist for Politico, bow tie strong today, Jonathan, former Congresswoman Stephanie Murphy of Florida and Marc Short, the former chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence. Yamiche, let me start with you on some of your reporting. We know access to abortion pills remains legal after the Supreme Court this week sent the issue back to a lower court. But the White House is making the point that this issue is not done. You have new reporting for us on the Biden campaign's plans to lean into the topic of reproductive rights. What can you tell us?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
That's right. I've got exclusive details on what really is going to be a robust messaging campaign by the Biden campaign to really focus on abortion. They see this as a uniquely mobilizing issue, so they're going to be holding something like 30 events, more than 30 events in battleground cities across this country. And they're going to be making the case that, really, Joe Biden is the one that's going to keep women safe and that former President Donald Trump put a number of women in danger, because he was the one who nominated the justices who overturned Roe v. Wade.And they're also going to be rolling out a number of different things, including ads featuring women telling personal stories. I actually talked to one of the women who's going to be part of this, Kaitlyn Kash. She lives in Austin, Texas, and she had to flee the state of Texas to get an abortion after she learned at 13 weeks that the fetus she was carrying had a fatal birth defect. She tells me that she's going to be wanting to empower women, because part of this is also going to be training people, training women to tell their own stories. So, the Biden campaign is really going to be leaning in on this, especially because it's coming just a few days before that first debate between, of course, Trump and Biden.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Yes, and in conjunction with the second anniversary of the Dobbs decision, as you know. Jonathan, to you. Mr. Trump has said that Republicans shouldn't be talking about –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yes.
PETER ALEXANDER:
– abortion this week. Behind closed doors with Republicans, he's said they should be talking about it more. What is the way forward for Republicans on this topic?
JONATHAN MARTIN:
To avoid it. No, look, I think if Donald Trump and the party leaders had their druthers, they would talk about immigration, inflation, and Joe Biden's age every day and twice on Sundays. And I think that's going to be their preference. Look, there's no unified strategy on the abortion issue in the GOP, which is why they want to avoid it. It's been a political loser for them since the Dobbs came down. I think they're going to try to avoid it. The challenge for Democrats of course is that Joe Biden isn't comfortable talking about the issue and never has been, which is why I think you're going to see surrogates largely press that issue for the Biden campaign.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Of course the other big moment, Marc, as you know, is the debate coming up, now 11 days away. The first time, as we did the math, that either of them will have participated in a debate in 1,300-plus days here. Who has more at stake?
MARC SHORT:
I think Joe Biden does. I think there are greater questions about his stamina and his fragility. And I think the reality is, regardless of Trump's performance, his support's going to be the same. But I think that, for Joe Biden as well, he presented himself four years ago as the candidate who would bring back normalcy, end the drama. I think for a lot of voters, you look out there and you see war in eastern Europe, war in the Middle East, chaos at our border, chaos on college campuses, inflation driving our economy. And if they want assurance that he's capable for this, he needs to have a strong performance.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Stephanie, is Joe Biden up to the task in that debate?
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
I think he has an opportunity in this debate to address the two key concerns voters have about him: One is age, and the second is handling of the economy. On age, he needs to show up like he did for the State of the Union and give a fiery presentation and really take Donald Trump on. And then on the economy, he has to actually connect with people about their concerns over costs and kind of pivot from where he has been, which is to try to convince them that his policies have been good and that things are okay. That isn't working. So, he has an opportunity to turn the page here and make a big difference.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
If I could though, I would say –
PETER ALEXANDER:
But –
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
– on the issue of abortion, I mean, it's uniquely mobilizing, the Biden campaign says. And they think that because in polls after polls and in interviews that I've done with voters, they say abortion, even if it's not their top issue, it's an issue that's going to motivate how they actually vote.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And it's on the ballot in key states, including Arizona –
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
It's on the –
PETER ALEXANDER:
– some of these key swing states as well.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
Yes. And the Supreme Court decision on Mifopristone that's staying, for now, on standing that the pill is going to continue to be acceptable, you're going to hear from President Biden, Vice President Harris, and a number of people saying, "Okay, it's safe for now." But they're going to be arguing that Donald Trump is trying to implement a federal ban on abortion, even though Trump is saying, "Leave this to the states." They're saying, "You can't trust Republicans, here."
PETER ALEXANDER:
Jonathan, back to this debate topic, though. They are largely performative, these debates, in many ways. And this year, they're going to be performing with a different set of rules. There is –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yes.
PETER ALEXANDER:
– no studio audience. There's now a mute button that's in place –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Cut the live feed or cut the mics, yes.
PETER ALEXANDER:
– when it's not your turn to talk, right? In the past--
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Right. Do it to Marc, here, yeah.
PETER ALEXANDER:
– you remember Joe Biden said, "Will you shut up, man?" Sometimes it's those interruptions that can be the most dramatic and telling about these candidates. What do you make – what do you anticipate?
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Some of us who had to cover that 2020 debate are still recovering from that high wire act. It was a very stressful evening for those watching and writing about it. Unforgettable for the American people, too, that Trump-Biden debate in '20. Look, I think it's going to make for a better debate to have no studio audience, to cut those mics. I think we'll have a better exchange. I don't think Biden ultimately had a choice here. I think he, the principal, Joe Biden himself wanted to actually debate, which counts obviously. He has a vote. And I think also his staff realized that trial was not breaking through. They had to try to get Trump back in the camera frame, make Trump the issue in this debate. Peter, here's the risk. Biden wants to use a 90-minute debate to show the American voter, "Don't believe those clips. Don't believe that spliced video. I'm not somebody who's losing it. I can be up here for 90 minutes and I can do this debate." If he has that moment, to your point, Stephanie, I think it's going to be helpful to him. The risk is he does have a bad moment, and there's a ten-second viral video, that is all folks will recall from that debate. That's the risk.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Marc, let me ask about the topic of vice presidential picks. We talked to one of the potential picks a little bit earlier today. You served for the former Vice President Mike Pence. How important is this selection for Donald Trump's ticket?
MARC SHORT:
I think it's less important, honestly, than it was eight years ago, Peter. I think at that time we had a very divided Republican Party. As you recall, Ted Cruz went to the convention, refused to endorse Trump. And so, having Mike Pence on the ticket unified conservatives in the party. He has the party unified right now. I don't think there's something that he needs –
PETER ALEXANDER:
Who would be the best asset? Who would serve him best?
MARC SHORT:
I think somebody who can be there and represent a broad spectrum of policy positions. But I think that –
PETER ALEXANDER:
Who is that, among the list of names that we're hearing? Is Mike Pence available?
MARC SHORT:
I think that probably, of the names listed, probably Rubio is somebody who presents that broader set of issues for the former president. But, you know, I think that if he's looking for a mini Trump then he'll probably end up with J.D. Vance, and I think that if he's looking for financial help, he'll go with Burgum.
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
Do you really think he wants somebody who has policy perspectives that help him –
MARC SHORT:
I don't think that was the question.
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
I know.
MARC SHORT:
The question was who would be best for him?
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
But, you know, what he said about the former vice president was that he was too honest. I think he's going to look for somebody who will do his bidding, and not put up the same sort of resistance, based on values and character, that Vice President Pence did.
PETER ALEXANDER:
We're talking about vice presidents. Who does Vice President Kamala Harris want to be debating?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
I was just talking to her office this morning, someone from her office, and they told me that really whoever he picks is going to turn into somebody who's going to be a mini Trump. They're going to categorize that person as choosing Trump over the country. So, really, I think the vice president isn't really saying that she has someone that she's looking forward to debating, here, because she thinks whoever she's going to be debating is going to be someone who's really just echoing what Donald Trump is saying. And I think, when I talk to Republicans, I also hear that they basically are expecting someone, whoever that person is, to morph into Donald Trump and to morph into all of his views.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Jonathan, we've seen criminal history in back-to-back months. First, the first former president ever to be convicted of a crime; now, the first son of a sitting president to be convicted of a crime. Hunter Biden convicted on those gun charges.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yes.
PETER ALEXANDER:
He has another trial on tax charges this fall, it takes place in September there. How big of a deal is this situation for the Biden campaign?
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Well, I think it matters to the extent that it lets Trump and his lieutenants try to muddy the waters about Trump's criminal exposure. And we should be clear: It's not the same thing. It's a former president facing nearly 100 felony charges, and the other is the son of the president. It's very, very different. But obviously, from a political standpoint, yes, it's not helpful for the Biden campaign to have this out there, and it creates an opportunity for the Trump folks. This is what the Trump campaign does pretty effectively, which is try to make this false equivalence happen. And we're going to see them try to do that for months here.
STEPHANIE MURPHY:
I think though it does highlight a contrast between Biden and Trump. And Biden, as painful and personal as this is, has accepted the outcome of the justice system and is moving on, whereas Trump continues, and the Republicans continue to try to undermine our justice system. And that's a real contrast.
PETER ALEXANDER:
You saw the effort to overturn the election results. He's now asking the House Republican speaker to help him overturn the results of his own conviction, Marc.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Well, look, I look at yesterday and I see him go to Detroit and appeal to African American voters as a terrific contrast to Biden being in Hollywood trying to get Hollywood actors to--
PETER ALEXANDER:
Well, he was in Hollywood with the first –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
But I think –
PETER ALEXANDER:
– Black American president as well, who endorsed him.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
– was wrong was that he then goes to Michigan and gets off message and starts talking about January 6th again. It's counterproductive to him. It's like every time he's actually making a positive contrast, he brings it back to something –
MARC SHORT:
And attack Milwaukee, for example. He can't help himself.
PETER ALEXANDER:
We're all going to be in Milwaukee in July, so we'll see you there, I trust, as well. When we come back, President Biden's meeting with Pope Francis on Friday marked the 32nd time a U.S. president has met with the leader of the Catholic Church. Our Meet the Press minute is next.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Welcome back. On Friday, Pope Francis hosted more than 100 comedians and actors at the Vatican, including Jimmy Fallon, Whoopi Goldberg and Chris Rock. The Pope told them, "In the midst of so much gloomy use, you have the power to spread peace and smiles." President Biden also met with Pope Francis for the second time on the sidelines of the G7 summit. An audience with the Pope is a privilege that was also extended to this broadcast's long-time moderator, Tim Russert. Tim passed away 16 years ago this week just days after a trip he made to the Vatican. After the death of Pope John Paul II in 2005, Tim reflected on the impact meeting him in the '80s had on his life.
[START TAPE]
TIM RUSSERT:
This morning, permit me a personal memory as a Catholic layman and a father. Easter week, 1985, NBC News and the Today Show spent an historic week at the Vatican. The next year, my family returned. The pope blessed the mom, then the dad, then his undivided attention on our baby Luke. He hugged him, then kissed his forehead, saying all the while, "Very nice. Very nice. Very nice." Then that smile. Luke was truly mesmerized by this most holy man. That moment, that blessing will be with us forever.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
Very nice indeed and, man, do we miss Tim. When we come back, with the Tony Awards tonight, Kristen's Meet the Moment conversation with actor Michael Imperioli is next.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Welcome back. It’s showtime for Broadway’s biggest fans: The 77th annual Tony Awards are at Lincoln Center tonight. One of the newest stars on the stage has been a fixture on your TV for decades. Actor Michael Imperioli is best known for playing liars and cheats – from his star-making role as a troubled mobster in “The Sopranos” to a womanizing Hollywood producer in “The White Lotus.”
[START TAPE]
CHRISTOPHER MOLTISANTI:
You ever feel like nothing good was ever going to happen to you?
PAULIE GUALTIERI:
Yeah. And nothing did. So what?
DOMINIC DI GRASSO:
You never showed me how to put others first. You always put yourself first. Always. So I did the same thing.
[END TAPE]
PETER ALEXANDER:
Now, Imperioli’s latest project examines how far someone will go to expose the truth. He stars alongside Succession's Jeremy Strong in a new revival of the 1882 Ibsen classic “An Enemy of the People." The play explores the tension between science and politics - and has now been nominated for five Tony Awards, including Best Revival. Kristen recently sat down with Imperioli for a “Meet the Moment” conversation and asked him about making his Broadway debut.
MICHAEL IMPERIOLI:
I think doing a Broadway show was the last thing on my bucket list as an actor, to be honest. I mean, working with Marlon Brando was always there, but that's never going to happen. But I always wanted to do a Broadway show. I knew this play, and I loved it. So this was the perfect storm to do a Broadway show. And for me it's like being part of this history and legacy of great theater artists.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As an actor, what is the impact on you to have the audience so close?
MICHAEL IMPERIOLI:
Well, I find it really, really exciting to have the audience that close. And you really feel it at the end. Sometimes audiences can be more quiet, sometimes they can be loud, but at the end, they seem to be – have listened. And a lot of people are moved by it. In the end of the play, I don't want to give anything away, but he's saying, "We have to imagine that someday the truth will be valued and that water will be safe and clean." And this is written a long time ago. And those words make a lot of sense to everybody.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The ending of the play is haunting in some ways because it feels like Jeremy Strong is reaching into the depths of everyone's soul and saying what everyone has thought at one point or another. And yet, this play was written in 1882 by Norwegian playwright Henrik Ibsen. How do you think it still – how is it that it could have been written yesterday, and how does that impact you?
MICHAEL IMPERIOLI:
These arguments where science and politics clash and meet, climate change is obviously a really easy parallel to make where a lot of scientists or most scientists are saying that, "Yes, carbon emissions and fossil fuels are changing the weather to disastrous effects, and it's just going to get worse if we don't do something." That's pretty much the consensus. But not everybody believes that. Not all politicians want to make decisions and policies that are based on that kind of science. Why? Well, because economic interests, large oil companies that would go under or are funding politicians and lobbying politicians, and jobs that might be lost, although jobs can be created. And where you see politicians making decisions based on economics. Now, we faced a similar thing during the pandemic, so it was like, "Do we shut down the economy? Do people go out of business?" Businesses closed during the pandemic, certainly did. Was that the best decision? Were there other choices to make? I mean, there were people who were saying, "We should try herd immunity, and some people are going to die, and some people are going to live." We lived through all these things and are living through them. After the show, sometimes people wait outside to say hi, and you see people saying, this play is impacting them because they're living this. They don't necessarily trust their leaders or people because they have political motivations rather than the motivations for the well-being of the citizens.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is that part of what drew you to this play? The fact that, yes, it was written in the 1800s, but there are so many parallels to today – to our world today?
MICHAEL IMPERIOLI:
Oh yeah. It's extremely relevant, extremely, and people are shocked --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Why did you want to do this role?
MICHAEL IMPERIOLI:
I think it's a really important play for now. The fact that it's so old, that it's 140 years old, really means that, "Wow, we haven't learned our lesson."
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you think the significance of that moment is where Jeremy Strong is addressing the audience as the community members, all of us, and saying, "At least we won't have to deal with this in America?"
MICHAEL IMPERIOLI:
When he says that line, "In America, we won't have to deal with this," which he really says after they've basically beat him up and vandalized his house, people applaud when they hear that line. We looked at, during rehearsal, videos from January 6th. I mean, the violence that happens in our play, we made a direct parallel to what happened. Because there's misinformation, and there's manipulation of, "Listen. People attacked the Capitol based on absolute lies." That was confirmed by pretty much every judge and expert and everybody, lies and lust for power. And people were hurt, and people died as a result of that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you watched January 6th video to prepare for what is, frankly, one of the toughest scenes in the entire play, which is when your brother in the play is getting physically assaulted. Why was that important to go back to January 6th?
MICHAEL IMPERIOLI:
It's just something we were talking about, how quickly these – because it starts with words and ideas, that scene. And how quickly it turns into violence.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And the real world literally collided with this production during one of the previews of the play when during the very brief pause in the play –
MICHAEL IMPERIOLI:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– climate activists stood up and started shouting.
MICHAEL IMPERIOLI:
They had either seen the play or got a copy of the script. Because they knew exactly where to interject. There's a place where the moderator of the town hall says, "If there's no further objections, Dr. Stockmann, you may speak." And someone stood up and said, "I object. There's no theater on a dead planet." At that point still thinking that he may be a plant that the director put in to throw me a curveball, but I just went out and started pushing him out of the theater. I was not trying to hurt him. I was doing it very safely. But then I realized, "Oh, he's a real activist." And then there were some other activists who stood up in different parts of the theater. And I wasn't offended. I wasn't, "How dare they interrupt my play?" I think they did it in a constructive, respectful way, although if it happened in the first three scenes, it would have been very disrespectful.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How do you see the role of art, of theater, of acting in our politics, in our world today?
MICHAEL IMPERIOLI:
People receive so much information these days constantly, through social media, through television, through news all the time. And a story like this – engaging in story can really give a wider perspective and maybe make the person think for themselves about the issue. "How do I really feel about this?" And two hours sitting in that environment just in this story can maybe affect the brain a little bit differently to have you settle down and think into it a little – into these issues a little more.
PETER ALEXANDER:
And by the way, tomorrow on “TODAY,” Tom Llamas sits down with the cast of “The Sopranos” to celebrate the show's 25th anniversary. They reflect on the show’s enduring legacy and share memories of their late costar James Gandolfini. That's all for today. We appreciate your watching. Most importantly, Happy Father's Day to all you dads, my dad among them. We are back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
