KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: truce collapse. Fighting between Israel and Hamas resumes after a seven day pause and more than 100 hostages released.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
We will not stop working until we get every hostage back home.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But now pressure is growing for Israel to reduce civilian deaths.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
The way Israel defends itself matters.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What will change in the next phase of the war? I’ll talk to National Security Council Spokesman John Kirby. Plus, banking on Iowa. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis faces off in a debate against a governor he’s not actually running against.
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
This country must choose freedom over failure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As Nikki Haley gains ground in the battle for the number two spot behind Donald Trump.
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
I just have one more fella I gotta catch up to.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Can DeSantis really win Iowa? I'll talk to the Republican presidential candidate as he completes his 99-county tour. And, expelled. The U.S. House removes Republican Congressman George Santos of New York in a bipartisan vote – only the 6th member ever to be expelled in the body’s history.
REP. GEORGE SANTOS:
If I leave, they win. This is bullying.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Plus, pregnancy risks. Allyson Felix, the most decorated U.S. track and field athlete of all time, speaks out about the Black maternal health crisis.
ALLYSON FELIX:
Three of the fittest, healthiest women in the world are facing these complications. I think it shows how dangerous it is to give birth today in America as a Black woman.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: Tim Alberta of The Atlantic, Kimberly Atkins-Stohr, senior opinion writer for The Boston Globe and Stephen Hayes, editor of The Dispatch. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. Top U.S. officials are toughening their tone, urging Israel to do more to spare civilians after the collapse of a fragile truce between Israel and Hamas. Israel is pounding targets in crowded southern Gaza and has ordered more neighborhoods designated for attack to evacuate, driving up the death toll. Now warnings from the U.S., previously delivered behind closed doors, are breaking out into the open. Secretary Blinken, saying: "the massive loss of civilian life and displacement of the scale we saw in northern Gaza must not be repeated in the south." And both the vice president, traveling in the region, and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin on Saturday calling for restraint.
[START TAPE]
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
As Israel defends itself, it matters how. The United States is unequivocal. International humanitarian law must be respected. Too many innocent Palestinians have been killed. Frankly, the scale of civilian suffering and the images and videos coming from Gaza are devastating.
GEN. LLOYD AUSTIN (RET.):
I have personally pushed Israeli leaders to avoid civilian casualties, and to shun irresponsible rhetoric, and to prevent violence by settlers in the West Bank.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Secretary Austin warning Israel risks "strategic defeat" if it does not protect civilian lives. But in Israel, pressure on the government to bring home the nearly 140 hostages who remain in captivity in Gaza with thousands protesting in Tel Aviv on Saturday night. And in an address, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu promised to “do everything possible” to bring the remaining hostages home, vowing "total victory against hamas."
[START TAPE]
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
At the end of the day, this is our war. and we're the ones who need to decide. Ultimately, we're the ones who actually decide.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is John Kirby, National Security Council coordinator for strategic communications. John, welcome back to Meet the Press.
JOHN KIRBY:
Thank you so much, Kristen. Good to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you for being here. I want to start with the very latest. This cease-fire fell apart early Friday. Fighting has resumed. Israel, of course, has withdrawn from negotiations in Qatar. Can you give us a sense this morning, what is the status of negotiations to resume a temporary truce?
JOHN KIRBY:
Well, there are no official negotiations going on right now, Kristen, and that's because of Hamas. Hamas failed to come up with yet another list of women and children that could be released. And we know they're holding additional women and children – not combatants, not female IDF soldiers – but innocent civilians, women and children, that they have, that they couldn't put on a list and turn that in. So, unfortunately, the negotiations have stopped. That said, what hasn't stopped is our own involvement trying to get those back on track and trying to discuss with those partners and all those interlocutors, see if we can't get it back in place.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, those discussions have halted. What is the potential timeline to get them back on track, John?
JOHN KIRBY:
Well, I wish I knew the answer to that one. What I can tell you is that we are still working it really hard, hour by hour, to see if we can't get the sides back to the table and see if we can't get something moving. We would like that to happen today. But honestly, I just don't know.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, let me ask you about Secretary Blinken's trip to the region this week. He said the Israeli government has agreed to a, quote, “clear plan” for averting civilian deaths before resuming its assault on southern Gaza. Can you give us an indication, what is that plan, John, and what specific assurances has Israel given to the U.S.?
JOHN KIRBY:
I want to be careful that I don't speak to Israeli military operations and get ahead of what they're doing. That would be inappropriate for me to do. What I can tell you is that in our conversations with them, they have said that they agree with our idea here that the approach they take matters, that the reduction of civilian casualties and, quite frankly, minimizing damage to civilian infrastructure is important to them. That they understand that. They're receptive to that message. And again, without getting ahead of their tactics, I can tell you that we saw them go in with less force than when they went into the north. We're seeing them now conduct what we would call shaping operations in other places and making preparations. But they have actually given civilians in Gaza a list, a map – it's online – a list of areas where they can go to be more safe. There's not too many modern militaries, in advance of conducting operations, that would actually do that. So they are making an effort to at least inform the civilian population about where to go and where to avoid.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I'm going to ask you about that map momentarily. But what is the United States prepared to do if it feels as though Israel is not following a specific plan to mitigate civilian casualties? What's the fallout?
JOHN KIRBY:
That's a hypothetical, and I don't want to get ahead, again, of where we are right now. Secretary Blinken was very clear. We've been clear actually from the beginning of this –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But will there be consequences, John, if the United States feels as though Israel is not following a specific plan to protect civilians?
JOHN KIRBY:
Again, I don't want to speculate one way or the other, Kristen. I want to make two things clear. One is we're going to continue to support Israel as they go after Hamas. The security assistance continues to flow. That's not going to change. We're also going to do everything we can to make sure that they are properly accounting for the civilian population and minimizing the damage and the casualties as much as possible. The other thing that we're not going to take our foot off the gas on is seeing if we can get another pause in place so we can get more hostages out and, just as critically, more aid in.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about this map that you have referenced, the fact that Israel has said these specific places are safe zones. Obviously, civilians were already told to evacuate from the north. There's a sense that these civilians don't have a place to go. A UNICEF spokesperson tells the Washington Post, quote, "There is nowhere to move to, nowhere is safe” in Gaza. What is your response to him and others?
JOHN KIRBY:
Well, we understand the anxiety and the fear there. I mean, not only are there still a lot of civilians in southern Gaza, there are more civilians in southern Gaza because the Israelis accounted for humanitarian corridors to get hundreds of thousands. So we're estimating more than about a million, so that's roughly half the population of Gaza, before the war, is now internally displaced. That's a lot of people. And so we understand the concerns by the U.N. and by other non-governmental humanitarian organizations in there. That's why, again, we're working with our Israeli counterparts to do everything they can to provide these areas where people can go and feel a sense of safety. And again, they did put some information out in the last 24, 48 hours to articulate those kinds of areas. That's a step in the right direction.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, as we have discussed, the civilian death toll in Gaza has just been staggering. And despite all of this, only one fifth of Hamas' fighters have been killed. Is Israel's goal of eradicating Hamas a realistic one?
JOHN KIRBY:
We know from our own experience, Kristen, that while you can't defeat an ideology necessarily, you can certainly make it much more difficult for a group to operate, resource, train, plan, conduct attacks by going after their leadership – certainly going after their sources of funding, and we've laid additional sanctions on Hamas ourselves. But going after their leadership has a deleterious effect on their ability to operate. And that is what Israel is focusing on. And they have taken out – in fact, in just the last 24 hours – taken out yet another leader of Hamas, a battalion commander, and they're going to go after others. We think that that is certainly a useful tactic to pursue.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about the hostages. There are still eight Americans who are unaccounted for, including one woman. Has the U.S. been able to obtain information about the whereabouts, the conditions of these hostages? Are they still alive?
JOHN KIRBY:
We have imperfect information. We do believe that there are still a number of Americans that are being held hostage, Kristen, and largely we're getting that from communication with the family members and, of course, our Israeli counterparts. But it's difficult for us to know where they all are. And, just as critically, Kristen, it's difficult for us to know what their condition is.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, the relatives of the hostages are demanding that the Red Cross get in to be able to assess their condition.
JOHN KIRBY:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That was a part of the plan. And Jake Sullivan told me a week ago he expected the Red Cross to get in within, you know, a day or so of our interview. That still hasn't happened. Why not? When is it going to happen?
JOHN KIRBY:
That's Hamas. Hamas agreed to allow the Red Cross access to these hostages while the pause was in place. And, of course, that didn't happen and it's still not happening and it's unacceptable. I want to say one thing. This really doesn't get to your question, but even though the pause fell apart and even though there aren't hostages getting out and even though, to your point, the Red Cross isn't getting in, either, what we are still doing is working with the Israelis to get humanitarian assistance in. They have agreed to a continued flow. And so the one thing that hasn't stopped is humanitarian assistance, including fuel getting to the people in Gaza.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But are you satisfied with the amount of humanitarian assistance getting in because it's lower than –
JOHN KIRBY:
No.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– during the pause.
JOHN KIRBY:
Of course not. No, it needs to be much more. And what we want to see, the ultimate goal, is to try to get it at least to the level it was – the upper level that it was during the pause. We had several hundred trucks going in, sometimes several hundred a day. And so that's what we want to get up to.
KRISTEN WELKER:
John, I have to ask you about this New York Times reporting, which found that Israeli officials received Hamas' specific attack plan over a year ago. Was the United States aware of this intelligence? And if not, why not?
JOHN KIRBY:
The intelligence community has indicated that they did not have access to this document. There's no indications at this time that they had any access to this document beforehand.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Should they have, given how closely U.S. and Israeli intelligence officials coordinate or are supposed to coordinate?
JOHN KIRBY:
Intelligence is a mosaic, and sometimes, you know, you can fashion things together and get a pretty good picture. Other times, you know, there's pieces of the puzzle that are missing. As I said, our own intelligence community said that they've looked at this. They have no indications at this time that they had any advanced warning of this document or any knowledge of it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
John, very quickly, was this a failure on the part of Israeli intelligence and U.S. intelligence?
JOHN KIRBY:
I think there's going to be a time and a place for Israel to do that sort of forensic work. I mean, Prime Minister Netanyahu's already spoken pretty candidly about this and calling it, you know, a failure on their part. They'll take a look at this at the right time. They need to do that. Right now though, the focus has got to be on making sure that they can eliminate this truly genocidal threat to the Israeli people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. John Kirby, thank you so much for your time this morning.
JOHN KIRBY:
My pleasure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Really appreciate it.
JOHN KIRBY:
You bet.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, with the Iowa caucuses just six weeks away Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is completing his 99-county tour. Why is DeSantis so confident that he can beat Trump in Iowa? My conversation with him is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. With the caucuses just over six weeks away, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and former President Donald Trump held dueling events in Iowa on Saturday. DeSantis announced he had completed "the full Grassley," an Iowa tradition and a nod to Senator Chuck Grassley, who does an annual 99-county tour. DeSantis has held more than four times the number of events in the state. But even with the endorsem*nt of popular Governor Kim Reynolds he trails Trump by nearly 30 points. I sat down with Governor DeSantis on Saturday moments after he’d completed that 99th county stop.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You have now held events in all 99 of Iowa's counties. And yet, former President Trump is still 27 points ahead of you in the state. So, Governor, I have to ask you, are you committed to staying in this race through the Iowa caucuses?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Well, I'll tell you what: Doing all 99 counties is a tradition here. It's something that Governor Reynolds advised that I do. And it's a way to, one, show that you're earning people's support. Two, it's a way to hear from real people, outside of kind of the media bubble, about what's important to them. And then, I think, three, it reminds you that at the end of the day, you're a servant, you're not a ruler. And we really believe in servant leadership. So we went everywhere. We showed up. We took questions. And we've been able to build a really incredible organization. We've got over 30,000 people that already committed to caucus for us. We're adding more every day. Of course, we have the endorsem*nt by the great governor here, Kim Reynolds, and of course by Bob Vander Plaats, most recently from the Family Leader. So, I don't think anyone's ever done an Iowa caucus with this amount of institutional and grassroots support. And it's only going to build for here. And we look forward to being victorious on January 15th.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So just to be clear, you are committed to staying in the race through the caucuses?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Oh, of course I am. And, I mean, it's absurd that I wouldn't be. If you look at past Iowa caucus winners and compare to what, you know, people were saying in November with this poll or that poll, it almost never comes out the same way. So we have a great base of support. We have a much wider base of people, who are potential caucus goers, who believe that I've been a great governor and would be a good president. And we've just got to bring that home when people start to make their decisions. And they will be doing it. But I'll tell you one thing: What people in Iowa and even in the other early states, they do not want the media choosing the Republican nominee. They do not want narrative to trump over their decisions. And so I see a lot of resistance on the ground here to some of the things that have tried to be spun, whether it's through polls, whether it's through pundits. And I think that's a good thing. I think you're going to see, on caucus night, people's voice be heard.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let's talk about the stakes. On caucus night, if you don't come in at least second, would you then drop out of the race? How critical is Iowa?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Well, we're going to win the caucus. We're doing everything that we need to do it. We'll continue to build support.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But what if you don't, Governor? What if you don't?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
And I've said, from the beginning, we are – we are going to win the caucus. But even apart from that, there have been people that have won Iowa and not won the nomination and vice versa. You need to win a majority of the delegates. And so we're committed to doing that through the whole process to win the majority of the delegates. There's a lot of things that happen. I mean, even two months ago, the field looked a lot different than it does now. I think the field will look different on caucus night than it does now. So it's a very dynamic situation. Fortunately, we're somebody that has broad support. We're well positioned, and we're going to be able to take it all the way to the end to be able to win a majority of those delegates.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Bottom line: Is Iowa do or die for you, Governor?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
We're going to win Iowa. I think it's going to help propel us to the nomination. But I think we'll have a lot of work that we'll have to do beyond that. I don't think you take anything for granted. And I do recognize that there have been people that have won who have not gone on to win the nomination. I think this year's a little bit different. I think the field has narrowed quicker. I think it's going to narrow even more. And ultimately, Republican voters are going to have the choice of Donald Trump, which I think would make the election a referendum on him and a lot of the issues that he's dealing with, or me, and that will be a referendum on Biden's failures, on all the issues in the country that are affecting people. And I'll be able to stand for a positive vision going forward. We have a much better chance if we're doing it with me as the candidate. I'd also be able to serve two terms, and I’m more likely to actually get a lot of this stuff done. But those are the choices, realistically, for Republican voters.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You bring up former President Trump. So, let me ask you about the GOP front-runner. Mr. Trump is campaigning on the idea of retribution. He's promising to jail his political enemies, if he's reelected. He's also referred to some of his political opponents as "vermin," language that people, frankly, across the political spectrum, say hearkens back to Nazi Germany. Do you think that kind of language is presidential?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Well, I think even beyond that, the issue is is why are you running? Are you running for your personal issues? Are you running for the American people's issues? And I'm running for the American people's issues. And now, part of that is this government is out of control. We have seen weaponization of agencies, like the DOJ, and the FBI and the IRS. I am going to end that weaponization. But that's not because I'm doing it for me; it's because I'm doing it for the people that have been under the thumb of these agencies. And I'm going to restore the rule of law. So, I think if Donald Trump is saying his whole thing is retribution for himself, well, what about all the other people that have had issues with that? Is that somebody – are those people he's going to be standing up with? So I don't think you can say it's about “your enemies.” I think you've got to say it's about the American people's future. And the goal is to end weaponization, period, and to have a single standard of justice employed, not to basically do what we don't like is being done now, just in a different direction.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor, as you know, DOJ officials would reject the idea that it has been weaponized. But let me ask you about my original question, the use of the word “vermin." Are you comfortable with that term?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
But, Kristen, just to be clear --
KRISTEN WELKER:
But are you comfortable with that term, Governor?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Let me – let me just say on the DOJ – Well, first of all, I'm responsible for my – what I say. And I say things differently. But on the DOJ and the FBI --
KRISTEN WELKER:
But are you comfortable with that term?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
I mean, we have seen --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just on my question, though, Governor --
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Excuse me. What I'm not – what I’m not comfortable with is FBI agents going after parents going to school board meetings. I'm not comfortable with DOJ, FBI working with tech companies to censor dissent. I'm not comfortable with how this has been – power has been exercised. And you have an agency that is very political. People say, “Oh, they’re career,” but it's 99% donations to Democrats. You are seeing how that happens.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor, to the --
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
So, I don't use the same rhetoric that he does. I conduct myself in a different way. I think I conduct myself in a way that's more effective as a leader. Part of what you have to do is you have to be strong, you have to deliver big results. But what you don't want to do is you don't want to alienate people for no reason. And I think some of the reasons why he struggled electorally is because it's not even about the policy. It's about some of these other things.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So do you condemn the use of the word “vermin?”
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Don't shoot yourself in the foot. Be focused. Be disciplined.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you condemn the use of the word “vermin," then?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
I don't use the term. But what I don't do is play the media's game, where I'm asked to referee other people. He's responsible for his words. He's responsible for his conduct. I'm responsible for mine. But I will tell you, more important than the choice of words is: Why are you running? If he's running for personal retribution, that is not going to lead to what we need as a country. You've got to be running for the American people and their issues, not about your own personal issues. And that is a distinction between us. I am focused on the folks. I am focused on what they want to see done for this country in a positive direction. I'm the vessel, but ultimately, it's not about me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about a development on Capitol Hill. Speaker Mike Johnson says he believes he has the votes to open an impeachment inquiry into President Biden and that he has a duty to hold such a vote. But let me ask you: Do you think Republicans run the risk of having that move potentially backfire and emboldening President Biden as he heads into a reelection year, if they move to impeach him?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
So, here's what I think. I think that the Biden family, the amount of money that's flowed into that family, to me, is corrupt. I think that it's not been explained in ways that make any sense. And so opening an inquiry, based on the facts that we have, I think would be justifiable. However, I think they run the risk of doing an inquiry that doesn't necessarily lead anywhere while they've been ignoring a lot of the problems that our voters are talking about. When I'm going through Iowa, Republican voters obviously are not fond of Joe Biden. Yes, they're concerned about Hunter and all this money. But they're more concerned about what's happening at our border. They're more concerned about what's happening with the economy. They're more concerned about federal agencies that are overstepping their bounds. And so if you're doing the inquiry, which, again, I think is justifiable, you also have to be addressing all these other issues. And I think that there's a feeling out here that they're not focused on the key issues that they wanted to see addressed. Clearly, on the budget, there's been no progress on that. So, make sure you're not ignoring all these other issues. And don't use that inquiry as kind of a Trojan horse to not then meet your responsibilities on all these other things.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And, of course, there is a special counsel investigation into Hunter Biden. Let me turn to another domestic policy issue, one of the big issues that came up during your debate with Governor Gavin Newsom – abortion. Governor Newsom asked if you would sign a six-week national ban, if you were president. You still have not answered that question. So let me ask you again here now: If you were elected president, would you sign a six-week national ban if it came to your desk?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
I've actually answered the question a bunch of times. So, Florida has protections when there's a heartbeat. Other states have done it differently. This is something that's going to be done in a bottom-up way. I recognize that. I'm here in Iowa, where they have a heartbeat bill. I'll be going in New Hampshire at the beginning of next week. They obviously are not going – not going to do that. They're going to approach it differently. We understand that. But I do think every state has a responsibility to have some limit into how they're doing it. And California, they fund abortion with tax dollars and can go all the way up to the moment of birth. I don't agree with that. I think it's wrong. But in terms of how this issue is going to be adjudicated, it's clearly going to be done on a bottom-up level.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Governor, I --
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
What's good for Florida or what's good for Texas is not necessarily what's going to fly in New Hampshire or Pennsylvania. That's just the reality.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Governor, as you know, you signed --
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Dobbs returned the issue to the political process.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor, I understand. But you signed a six-week ban in the state of Florida. So voters want to know, people of Iowa want to know --
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Right, but that was --
KRISTEN WELKER:
– where do you stand on this issue? Would you sign a six-week federal ban if it came to your desk, if you were president?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
But we signed a legislation to stand for a culture of life that was done by the Florida legislature.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So is that a yes? Is that a yes?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
I mean, this was them bringing the will of the people. Well, Congress is not going to do any type of abortion legislation. They haven't done abortion legislation – the only thing that's impacted abortion on the federal level, I think, last thing was Obamacare in 2010. So we understand that. And part of me promoting a culture of life is to do things that are achievable and that obviously would have consensus. No taxpayer funding for abortion. We're going to eliminate the abortion tourism policy of the Department of Defense. And we're going to protect the rights of states to enact the life protection.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about Obamacare. Former President Trump said he wants to repeal and replace Obamacare, something he tried and failed to do when he was president. You were in Congress at the time. If you were president, would it be your plan to try to repeal and replace Obamacare, something you voted to eliminate three times?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Well, you're right. President Trump promised that he would repeal and replace Obamacare. And he didn't do it. And that was a promise that he made a lot of times. I think that --
KRISTEN WELKER:
What would you do, Governor? What would you do?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
– healthcare costs have continued – have continued to go up. Well, but I think it's important to point out, he's running on a lot of the things he campaigned on in 2016 and didn't deliver it on: Whether it's repeal and replace Obamacare, whether it's building the border wall, whether it's draining the swamp. Remember, he said he would do a special counsel against Hillary Clinton, then two weeks after his election, said, "No." Now, he says he's going to do one against Biden.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Understood. But, Governor, what would you do?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
So this is part of a pattern, where he's running on things that he didn't do. Here's what I will do. What I think they're going to need to do is have a plan that will supersede Obamacare, that will lower prices for people so that they can afford healthcare while also making sure that people will preexisting conditions are protected. And we're going to look at the big institutions that are causing prices to be high: Big Pharma, big insurance, and big government. But it's going to need to be where you have a reform package that's going to be put in place. I don't think that repeating what Trump did and the failure is necessarily going to make sense. So, we will address that. We will make sure that the Obamacare promised lower premiums. It didn't deliver that. We know we need to go in a different direction, but it's going to be done by having a plan that's going to be able to supersede it. And we will be working on that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor, I want to be clear by what you mean by “supersede." Do you mean you will move to repeal Obamacare and try to replace it with something else, or will you leave it in place and make revisions?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
No, no. You will have a totally different healthcare plan.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you'll repeal it? You'll move to repeal it?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
But what it will be is people – so people that will be on things like, if they have an exchange plan, we'll have a plan that will offer them coverage. So, the coverage will be different and better, but they're still going to be able to be covered. So, we want to make sure we have as many people covered as possible at the lowest possible price. And, like, in places like Florida, I mean, we already have – I signed preexisting protections anyways. And so I know that that was, like, a big deal with Obamacare. But that's an easy thing that we'll agree on. So that's not a big deal. So it’s going to be – we're going to have a plan. I think it's going to over – it’s going to supersede Obamacare. It's going to be much better for people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Governor, I just want to be very clear, though. Are you going to keep Obamacare in place and make revisions to it? Is that your plan, just to be crystal clear?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
This will be – this will be replacing Obamacare.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you'll repeal it and replace it?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
We need to have a healthcare plan that works. Obamacare hasn't worked. We are going to replace and supersede with a better – better plan.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Can you tell me specifically what the plan is and what your plan is to ensure the 40 million people who now have health insurance who didn't before Obamacare was passed?
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Well, we're going to be working on – probably in the spring we'll roll out a big proposal. I've got a lot of input that's been coming in from a lot of good people around the country. But we will definitely be addressing insurance, we'll definitely be addressing big government, and we will be addressing Big Pharma. You know, we pay more for drugs in this country than anybody else in the world. I'd like to see some equity across these developed countries, so that our consumers are getting relief. Obamacare promised that; it didn't deliver. So, we're going to do something that actually works.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And a programming note, join us this Wednesday at 10pm Eastern for a Meet the Press special following the next Republican presidential debate. You can watch it on NBC News Now. When we come back, former President Trump is focusing on President Biden rather than his GOP rivals. The panel is here next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: Tim Alberta, staff writer for The Atlantic and author of “The Kingdom, The Power, And The Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism”; Stephen Hayes, editor of The Dispatch; and Kimberly Atkins Stohr, senior opinion writer at The Boston Globe. Thanks to all of you for being here. Steve, let's start with what we just heard from Governor DeSantis. He was defiant. He says he is in this race, in it at least through Iowa, to win it. And of course we saw him hold that debate this week with Governor Gavin Newsom of California, trying to basically shake up the race. Is it too late for him to shake up this race?
STEPHEN HAYES:
I mean, I'm not sure it's too late for anybody to shake up this – this race. We've got five-plus weeks until Iowa. A lot can happen. But the facts are troubling for Ron DeSantis. Donald Trump, as you pointed out, is ahead by – depending on the poll – 30 points in Iowa, some 50 points nationally. And what struck me about your interview with him is how small he felt in response to those questions. You're losing to Donald Trump by double digits, by a huge margin. You've got a short amount of time to make your case. You gave him multiple openings to make his case against Donald Trump, and he just really didn't seem to take it. There were prods on Obamacare, and he claimed that Trump is running for himself and not for the folks. But on the big things, he didn't jump in and make – prosecute the kind of case against the person he needs to topple in order to win.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Tim, what was your take, and is Iowa do or die for him? He says, "Hey, I'm going to win," but does he need to at least come in second or else have a hard discussion about potentially dropping out?
TIM ALBERTA:
Well, it's hard to see how for Ron DeSantis anything short of winning Iowa catapults him into real contention in this race because – let's just deal in reality here – Donald Trump's going to win New Hampshire. He's probably going to win New Hampshire running away – the same way he did in 2016 against a crowded field. Ron DeSantis is approaching, I think, sort of a fork in the road – and maybe he's already at the fork in the road, Kristen. He seemed defensive, jumpy in that interview. He almost gives the vibe of a guy who sort of knows that the end could be near. And let's keep in mind: Ron DeSantis is a young man. He's a talented politician. This is someone who a lot of Republican donors, a lot of Republican voters would like to see be president one day, perhaps not now. So, are you served in your political future by losing Iowa, getting demolished in New Hampshire, and then losing in South Carolina – perhaps finishing third in South Carolina? The bloom would come off the rose perhaps permanently at that point. So, DeSantis has a very interesting decision to make here, and of course we need to consider that in the context of his campaign apparatus and his super PAC outside apparatus sort of at war with one another and sort of imploding in real time. This is not a great moment for Ron DeSantis to be on a downward trajectory, and that's where he appears to be.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Such a great point about the fact that he is simultaneously keeping his eye on the future, which underscores likely why he decided to do that debate with Governor Gavin Newsom. Talking of the GOP front-runner, we did hear from him yesterday in Iowa. Former President Trump keeping his sights squarely set on President Biden. Take a look.
[START TAPE]
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP:
Joe Biden is not the defender of American Democracy. Joe Biden is the destroyer of American democracy. … The fact is Americans don't like fascists. We don't like Communists. We don't like tyrants. We don't like corrupt politicians like Joe Biden.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Kimberly, what do you make of this?
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Well, clearly he is looking at the general because, as we pointed out, the chances of anybody else on either side beating – catching up to Biden or him are very small. But I think what we really should be looking in that is his penchant for projection, which is something he's always done. When he was a businessman he would call the people he didn't like “crooks.” Now he stands accused of business fraud. I was surprised he didn't say that Joe Biden is facing 91 criminal counts. He is projecting what he is getting, and I think what that means is he knows that the Democrats – the warning signs by Democrats and even some Republicans about the authoritarian nature of Donald Trump and what another term would bring are hitting home. Voters are listening to that. And so his plan is just to try to deflect, paint himself somehow as the defender of democracy when the truth is he is the exact opposite.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. And, Tim, look, in your book you explore why evangelicals are so dedicated to former President Trump, and you can think of it in a way, I mean, look at what just happened on Capitol Hill. George Santos was just ousted, expelled because he is facing a number of charges.
President Trump's facing a number of charges as well. That has only reinforced his support among his base, including evangelicals in the state of Iowa. Talk about those dynamics in play and how challenging it is for a Ron DeSantis, a Nikki Haley to peel away at that constituency.
TIM ALBERTA:
Well, Kristen, we know now that there are sort of two standards in the Republican Party. There's a Trump standard, and then there's a standard for everyone else. Trump can obviously get away with things that nobody else can get away with. I think what's important to recognize, specific to his relationship with the evangelical base of the Republican Party, is that Donald Trump is not succeeding with these voters in spite of his behavior, in spite of the 91 counts, in spite of the rhetoric. But he is succeeding because of those things. And what I mean specifically is that when you consider the sort of psych – the psychological transformation of the evangelical base's relationship with Donald Trump and how they have come to view him as their protector in a time when they are in danger, they are under siege, the country is coming for them and their churches and their faith. They view Donald Trump as almost a mercenary to protect them in these dangerous times. And that's something that's very hard for another candidate to compete with.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Kimberly, we just have about 10 seconds left. Thoughts?
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Well, I mean, I think people can say – hold two thoughts at the same time and, one, that there is the threat to democracy. What does those freedoms that they're standing for mean if that's destroyed?
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Great conversation. Thank you so much. When we come back, a former first lady known as a loyal partner and advocate. Remembering Rosalynn Carter in our Meet The Press Minute.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. This week we lost three giants in the world of Washington: Sandra Day O'Connor, the first woman ever to serve on the Supreme Court; Henry Kissinger, the complicated and often controversial statesman who advised 12 presidents serving as secretary of state and national security advisor to both Presidents Nixon and Ford; and former First Lady Rosalynn Carter, who was laid to rest on Wednesday in Plains, Georgia, the town of 600 where she met her husband. President Jimmy Carter left hospice care to attend the services. In 1976, during Carter's campaign for president, Rosalynn Carter imagined what kind of first lady she might become.
[START TAPE]
ROSALYNN CARTER:
I don't think I could ever compare myself with Eleanor Roosevelt, but there are so many things that I see that need to be done. I don't – I don’t think I have ever shied away from controversy. I don't think Jimmy has ever shied away from controversy. Jimmy has always told me that if you do anything you are going to be criticized. The only way not to be criticized is just to be mediocre, never do anything. And – but the things that I want to work with are the mental health program. I’ve worked with that for a long time. I have been very concerned about it. I want to work with programs of the elderly. Everybody talks about the elderly, but nothing gets done for them. To me it is urgent
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Rosalynn Carter was 96 years old. And when we come back, the most decorated U.S. track and field athlete in Olympic history is calling for better maternal health care for black women. Our conversation with Allyson Felix is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
For more than 75 years, Meet the Press has had a history of shining a light on people who influence our politics from outside of Washington. When Allyson Felix stepped off the track at the Tokyo games in 2021, she had just won her 11th career medal – 7 golds – eclipsing Carl Lewis to become the most decorated U.S. track and field athlete in Olympic history. But now she’s making headlines for a new reason, as an advocate for Black maternal health. Black women have a maternal mortality rate about three times the rate for white women. For Felix, it’s personal. In 2018, she developed severe preeclampsia during her pregnancy with her daughter Camryn. And in a devastating turn, this past May, Tori Bowie, Allyson's teammate and the anchor of the gold medal-winning 4x100 relay team at the 2016 Rio Olympics, was found dead in her home, after facing complications from childbirth at 8 months pregnant. That experience, and her own, has made Allyson Felix a powerful voice on behalf of Black moms everywhere from the White House to the halls of Congress.
[START TAPE]
ALLYSON FELIX:
Mothers don't die from childbirth, right? Not in 2019, not professional athletes, not at one of the best hospitals in the country, and certainly not to women who have a birthing plan and a birthing suite lined up. I thought maternal health was solely about fitness, resources and care. If that was true, then why was this happening to me?
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Allyson Felix, welcome to Meet the Press.
ALLYSON FELIX:
Thank you so much for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about your road to motherhood. At 32 weeks, you were diagnosed with preeclampsia. Your beautiful daughter Camryn was born two months early. How did that experience shape you?
ALLYSON FELIX:
I feel like it really changed me. And I think more than anything, it opened my eyes. I – I think I kind of had an understanding of statistics and of what maternal health was like in America. But I didn't really understand it. I remember when I was in the hospital, and I had this whole birth plan, you know? I thought I was going to have a natural birth, and it was going to be beautiful and all these things. And they told me I had a severe case of preeclampsia. And I didn't even quite understand what that meant or what that meant for me, for my baby, and just feeling scared. You know, I'm a professional athlete. I've taken care of my body my entire life. And so to know that things really got scary and difficult was so hard. But at the same time, it opened my eyes to the struggles of so many other women, and especially women of color.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Take me inside that moment when you were told that you had preeclampsia. Because you had gone in for a routine checkup –
ALLYSON FELIX:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– at 32 weeks. What were those emotions?
ALLYSON FELIX:
Yeah, I was expecting to go home, you know? And I was admitted. And when I was admitted, things just spiraled downhill really quickly. And so I didn't even have time, quite, to process everything. And it just moved so fast. And then I ended up having an emergency C-section. And there was just a lot of fear.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What was your greatest fear?
ALLYSON FELIX:
That my daughter wouldn't make it, you know? That I don’t even think – it wasn't until after, you know, I came out of that experience that I realized how scared my family was for my life. I was only thinking about my daughter and what that meant for her. But they told me later on that they were so uncertain.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When you're in the middle of this experience, as you say, you didn't have that broader sense that women of color –
ALLYSON FELIX:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– experience complications during pregnancy at higher rates. Did you feel like your doctors, your medical community, was listening to you?
ALLYSON FELIX:
I felt like I should've known that I was at risk. I felt like I should've been told the signs to look for. Instead, I wasn't. I didn't know what preeclampsia was. I didn't understand that the swelling in my feet is just not simply a sign of pregnancy, but could be preeclampsia. And so I – I felt like I had great medical care, but that's not always enough.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you wish doctors had told you?
ALLYSON FELIX:
That, as a woman of color, that I'm already at a greater risk for these complications. What are the signs? What can I do to, you know, help this not happen? And also, you know, I should be taking my blood pressure at a certain point. So just being educated and being aware is huge.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So no doctors ever relayed that information to you, that you were at higher risk for something like preeclampsia as a woman of color?
ALLYSON FELIX:
No, I – I wasn't told that. The first mention I heard of preeclampsia was when I was being diagnosed with it. And so I think that's why awareness is so huge for me and to, you know, not only tell my story, but amplify other stories
KRISTEN WELKER:
Did you get sick? How bad did it get?
ALLYSON FELIX:
Yeah. My – because I had severe features of preeclampsia, they were in constant worry of me having a stroke, of my vision being lost. And so that – the only cure for preeclampsia right now is to deliver. And so that's what happened very quickly. You know, I went from being admitted to the hospital and being told that our goal was to stay there for another two weeks, to try to stay pregnant. And I delivered, you know, later that night. And so it was a very quick progression. But I know that if I did not deliver, myself or my baby or both of us wouldn't have made it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You've been very outspoken because the bigger picture here is that there were four of you on the 2016 Olympic track and field team in Rio and then your teammate, Tori Bowie, tragically died of complications due to childbirth. How is that possible in this day and age?
ALLYSON FELIX:
I mean, it's absolutely devastating that, you know, three of the fittest, healthiest women in the world are facing these complications. And I think it's a stark reminder that, you know, this condition does not discriminate. It doesn't matter if you have the – the best medical care. You can still suffer from it. And to me, it just really hurts my heart that my friend, Tori, passed away, and it brought this back to the forefront. But this has been happening, you know? This is the reality of Black women giving birth in America. And there are so many situations that are like this. And so I hate that it takes such a – a devastating loss, you know, to bring it back to the forefront. But it also is just such a motivation that, you know, we have to do better.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What was that moment like when you realized Tori had passed giving – in the midst of childbirth?
ALLYSON FELIX:
It was heartbreaking. It’s heartbreaking When I read that it was eclampsia, yeah, I just – it just brought everything back to the forefront. I mean, I had been doing work in this space and so passionate about it. But when it's someone you know, when it's a friend, someone that you have competed alongside and had all these special moments and – you know, everyone dreams of motherhood. A lot of women do. And it just breaks my heart to know that that was her experience. I think it shows how dangerous it is to give birth today in America as a Black woman. I mean, out of the four of the women on the team, like, three of us are mothers. That's 100%. And that is astonishing, and it’s – it's just not okay. I think about the future and just keeping families together. And I just know that we have to do more.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What is your message to the medical community? What more do you want to see done?
ALLYSON FELIX:
Yeah, definitely more training, more implicit bias training. You know, we – there's countless stories of women not being heard when they are in the delivery room at doctors appointments. I don't think you should have to be prepared to advocate for yourself. I think it's intimidating for a lot of women, you know? The doctor is the expert. And so to have to really push up against them is difficult. And so that's one thing. Policy change, of course, you know, at that level is very important. And then just the awareness of it all as well. And I think we just have to remember these stories, the – these people, and not be detached from that as well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When you look at the statistics, women of color are three times more likely to die in childbirth than white women. When you see those statistics, and 80% of complications are preventable, how does that make you feel?
ALLYSON FELIX:
Knowing that 80% are preventable, to me it's infuriating. I also – it also brings me a lot of hope. Like, there is the possibility to reverse this. Like, we can do something about this. And I think it starts with listening. It starts with hearing. And obviously, there's a lot more to that. But I am hopeful for the future.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And before we go we do have exciting news: we learned after our interview that Allyson Felix is pregnant and expecting her second child. Camryn's baby brother is due in April. Congratulations. And you can see my full interview with Allyson Felix at MeetThePress.com. And you can catch the Paris Olympics next summer on NBC and streaming on Peaco*ck. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
